Legions

all the talk around the remake

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lordmoore
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Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:14 am

You guys are great! I liking the thought patterns here!
You are hitting on exactly what I'm talking about....the hex's are WAY to big. I like the idea of smaller hexes..period. Can an army travel across several countries in a years time..yes. But the scale we are currently stuck with and the time frame of each turn isn't realist. How long can a noble live in the Fading Suns universe. 100 years? 200 years?

"We should also keep in mind that wishing for greater complexity will doom this project."

Agreed. Some of the ideas I've made would add to the game. Like...smaller hex scaling and short turn periods.

"I forgot one suggestion: if you double the number of hexes in a planet map and want to limit the number of units, just cut the stacking limit to 10.

Also, if you believe like I do that units should be conceived as small (company or battalion level), then it makes more sense to have 1 unit cover less territory."

We are in agreement here also. Although, I'd like the size to be decreased by 2/3's and the unit movement increased.

"Note to Lordmoore; Serfs belong to the early Middle Ages except in backward areas like Russia. Peasants are a step above. No doubt EFS has both."

In the FS universe, most serfs/peasants/indebted servents have a generation servitude contract for themselves and there decendants. As such, which one is accurate? Serf or peasant? I'm not sure and you'd probably know better then me. I would think that because of this we can't apply just one time period to this problem.

Oh...the idea about making manpower a resource. That's partly what I was getting at with the whole village/city thing. Which I've thought more on and I'm going to share it:
Cities aren't buildable...they are pre-existing. Every planet has a city or two..manpower is generated by the city. Think of it as the city drawing more Freeman who are available for hire. And rename what we currently call cities to something else..buildings maybe?

Building:
We need to increase the possible number of buildable cites (current EFS system). To clarify, not just the 9 we have currently (is it 9?) but as many as we can. Make it easy to mod.
Enemies strengthen you.
Allies weaken.
I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

Grimly
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Re: Legions

Postby Grimly » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:34 am

I like separating buildings and cities. I understand pre-existing cities of freemen vs serfs, or workers vs peasants, or whatever. But surely you would be able to found a new city occasionally? Maybe someone familiar with the Emperor Wars could tell us if any truly new cities were founded during that time. Lordmoore is right that a noble only lives 250 years (or maybe 1000 turns, tops), so we're not talking Civilization here. We're fighting a war, not building cities for corrupt overeducated freeloaders who don't want to work on our farms.

But I'm not sure more than a dozen building types would help. One thing EFS does well is to create flexibility by producing only a few simple resources. For example: Electronics will go into any advanced unit regardless of function. I like that. I don't want to worry about getting the special tachyon transmitter to the starport to make a tachyon siege unit to load onto the jumpship to go into orbit and hook up with the lander pod.
Grimly

Grimly
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Re: Legions

Postby Grimly » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:05 pm

I'll keep this post more to the point. The second part of my answer to macroz about map scale follows:

(1)
Division/legion-sized units do make sense in terms of covering a large hex. But they don't work for EFS, and therefore hexes should not be large. Legions and divisions are "self-contained administrative and tactical units ready for prolonged combat," or so the word "division" is defined. That sounds great---all supply is divisional, troops rotate in and out and a division stays viable for decades. But as I have argued, what this means is that every infantry division carries a company of tanks, a company of tank destroyers, several divisional batteries, AT guns, flak, engineers, etc. etc. etc. To create an EFS division you would need to build it of all these regiment- and battalion-sized units. I've suggested a simple way of doing this (locking units together) and others have proposed more sophisticated approaches. But if all units are divisions, then you are stuck with the following units: Foot ID, Mech ID, Powered ID; Tank D, Heavy Tank D, Hover Tank D. THERE SIMPLY ARE NO OTHER GROUND UNITS YOU CAN PROPOSE TO BUILD. There can be no light tank divisions. No arty divisions. No shock troop divisions. No spy divisions. No tankhunter divisions. No flak divisions. Etc. etc. etc. They don't exist, and if they did exist they would immediately be cannibalized to help other divisions do their jobs. I don't think it's desirable to have players spending time managing their divisions, especially when the whole brigade-division-corps structure is Napoleonic and therefore anachronistic.

(2)
Somewhere, years ago, I read an analysis of how increased firepower and mobility have affected the efficiency of combat through history, measured in the length of battle line a single soldier can cover. The analysis compared an ancient Egyptian soldier, who could cover about 2 meters, with the modern Israeli soldier, who (by dividing the entire length of the battle line in the Yom Kippur War by the number of soldiers on it---including tank soldiers) covered a couple of miles.

My point is that an advanced EFS unit should be imagined/intended/assumed to increase this average coverage even more. Not that shock troops or foot knights would be on the line, but they would assist the pickets/skirmishers/foot troops with holding the line. Throw some hovertanks in there and you could have an average of 10 or 20 miles per soldier.

Someone mentioned a 1500-mile front in Russia, WW2. Using very rough numbers, that's 7.5 million meters, or 3.75 million Egyptians with swords, 2.5 million with spears, 1.25 million Swiss with pikes, 375,000 knights/men-at-arms, 150,000 Mongols, 75,000 mech infantry (7 divisions), 3,000 PzIVs (120 battalions), 1500 Tigers (60 battalions) (at 1 per mile), 750 Abrams (15 battalions, 5 divisions?), 150 Mastiffs (10 companies), 75 hovertanks (5 companies), or a few companies of powered heavy infantry and a line of peasants. (The analysis was by soldier and I'm assuming a crew of ~4 soldiers = 1 tank.)

Suddenly it seems quites possible for a mix of small units, pickets, aircraft, tanks, and arty to cover a planetwide battle line.

If each hex is ~500 miles, then divide the above numbers by 3. Naturally, the ancient Egyptians never fielded an army of 7 million, but if you look at the WW2-era examples, they are about right. Obviously the EFS examples are projections from our period to one of fusion rifles, ceramsteel armor, monopolar propulsion, and powered-armor infantry. 5 battalions of Abrams/Pitbulls = a stack of 15 companies---perhaps a bit much, but not off by much. (3 companies of Mastiffs, 2 companies of hovertanks, 1 foot knight company and ~5 peasant levies would also be enough to hold a hex, especially with a light tank company and a gun battery.)

<small>[ 06.09.2004, 18:47: Message edited by: Grimly Fiendish ]</small>
Grimly

lordmoore
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Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:33 pm

"...But surely you would be able to found a new city occasionally?"
Why would a noble want to invest the huge resources into building a city? Wouldn't those resources be better spent on a shiny new Cruiser? I think it would be better to have pre-existing cities that generate manpower.

Building:
"But I'm not sure more than a dozen building types would help."
One of the problems I have with the game is that buildings produce units unrealistically. Mines,wells & farms shouldn't produce anything except resources.
Enemies strengthen you.

Allies weaken.

I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

Grimly
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Legions

Postby Grimly » Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:37 pm

"...But surely you would be able to found a new city occasionally?"
Why would a noble want to invest the huge resources into building a city? Wouldn't those resources be better spent on a shiny new Cruiser? I think it would be better to have pre-existing cities that generate manpower.

Building:
"But I'm not sure more than a dozen building types would help."
One of the problems I have with the game is that buildings produce units unrealistically. Mines,wells & farms shouldn't produce anything except resources.
Cities: I agree, except for when you have a Vau or freshly conquered Symbiot planet to colonize. Also, didn't we agree that cities generate cash? You need to have at least one city on a planet to build factories and facilities that peasants can't be used for, if there are any---that you need semieducated workers for. But if there isn't a city . . . build one. You'd probably need a special charter from the Emperor, which could be an interesting political game in itself. Planetary upgrade?

Buildings: I agree, but how would more buildings help? How many do you propose? BTW, I disagree that harvest cities couldn't produce units---of course they could, they just wouldn't be advanced. Miners can fight. Peasants can fight. That's where militias and levies come from. Of course, if you had manpower as a resource that might be different---but militias are attached to the land they came from, unlike units produced from a national conscription. And peasants would be armed with pitchforks, miners with hammers and maybe dynamite, workers with, uh, cutting tools---arc welders?---unless they are armed and organized by the House.
Grimly

lordmoore
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Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:06 pm

More on building:
Instead of engineers that disband after building...why not have high upkeep Guild Engineers (isn't this the league's thing anyways?) that build structures (roads, buildings & landing pads) using material if its available on planets. Thier high upkeep and long build times will add more realism and enhance the game play.

Landing pads?
Why are massive ships able to enter and leave the atmosphere landing where ever they want? I would propose restricting planet falls to spaceports or landing pads (buildable item..like a road) for all craft except assault landers. Its unrealistic to think a huge bulk hauler could land on a planet and then have the ability to escape gravity without the assistance a full equip spaceport can provide. Plus, it will add to the game play! Planet assaults will have to be planned more carefully because you'll need to land an expensive Guild Engineer to build a landing pad (or two) to bring in the bulk haulers and there squads. Landing pads shouldn't take more then a turn or two to build (1 or 2 months).

Oh...and if we decrease the unit size..we need to increase the amount of troops that can be carried by bulk haulers.
Enemies strengthen you.

Allies weaken.

I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

Grimly
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Location: Philadelphia, PA

Re: Legions

Postby Grimly » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:43 pm

Buildings: I agree the EFS system for building is crude. Yes, engineers should survive like any other unit. You'd pay the resources at the time of building initation, not when you build the engineer. Disbanding should simply end the contract with the Guild.

Landing: All you need to do this is a few more movement classes and getting rid of that stupid damage system (the one where ships get experience for making landings they shouldn't even be trying.) or at least using a default armor value of only 10 for a landing bulk hauler. I think Macroz and the other programming types have a good handle on that. (See the links Macroz provided.)

Transport: Why do you assume that transport capacity would need to increase? Why would supply and economic considerations be any different in space from on the ground?

Speaking of ships: are there any plans out there for allowing ships to be boarded and captured?
Grimly

lordmoore
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Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Mon Sep 06, 2004 8:52 pm

Cities: Hummmm...I see your point. Let me think...ok I got it. Its reasonable to assume that the Vau have cities of there own for you to conquer (is that the sound of an increase research bonus for capturing a Vau city or water in my ears?). As for the symbiots...didn't they take those worlds from humans? There should still be cities there...empty cities, but cities never the less. Symbiot worlds to add a challenge to my idea...and how DO you upgrade your planet? :confused:
Ok...instead of making nobles buildable how about making a building thats a nobles manor/fort/thingy (req: long build time/high firebird/medium resource). It gives a noble upon completion (think of it as the house lord granting a family member an estate) and operates similar to a city(taxable population, trains units, etc...).

Buildings:
I actually didn't mean to include farms...they produce peasaant levies. My point was that miners and well workers have some skill, so you're not going to send them off to fight on another planet as cannon foddder. You're going to have peasant levies for that. I think the reason we have units built by every building in the game is because you can't add training grounds, Recruitment centers or the Moore Institute (Ranger legions). And if you could build them (as I've suggested before), they should be pricey to setup...depending on the type of units they can train.
Enemies strengthen you.

Allies weaken.

I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

lordmoore
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Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2000 1:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:02 pm

Speaking of ships: are there any plans out there for allowing ships to be boarded and captured?
-----------------------------------------------
I like that idea!
________________________________________________
Transport: Why do you assume that transport capacity would need to increase? Why would supply and economic considerations be any different in space from on the ground?
_________________________________________________

When I think bulk hauler...I picture the Spacing Guild ships from Dune. Even if the bulk haulers are smaller, I'm sure they should be able to carry more then 4 battalions? Or how about seperating the cargo capacity from the troop carrying capacity? Just ideas!
Enemies strengthen you.

Allies weaken.

I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

lordmoore
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Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2000 1:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Legions

Postby lordmoore » Thu Sep 09, 2004 7:57 pm

Random events:
It would be nice (and probably not too too hard to implement) to have random events added to the game play.
Enemies strengthen you.

Allies weaken.

I tell you this in the hope that it will help you understand why I act as I do in full knowledge that great forces accumulate in my Empire but with one wish--the wish to destroy me.

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Macroz
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Re: Legions

Postby Macroz » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:20 pm

Wink wínk, wish list ;)


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