Emperor of the Fading Suns Forum

For your approval here are my Ideas for "EFS II"

Like I had said in the earlier thread I LOVED EFS. Much like one loves a brother. Willing to over look minor problems because the setting and the game itself was so elegant.

So here we go.

Part I.
Playabilty and Fun are more important than anything else. (Or Why Master Of Orion 3 failed miserably)

The nice thing about a SF game is that you are not hampered by such things as "realism" or "historical accuracy". While they tend to make historical games compelling, in the free wheeling world of the distant future you can put them aside or at least in the back seat.

So instead of dealing with realism you can start by asking yourself some basic questions.

1)What do you want to do when you play this game?

2)What do you want to be able to do in a single turn (providing its turn based)?

3)What bores you about strategy games and what makes your skin crawl?

4)What would be the most fun to do in multiplayer?

5)What details get you to play over again?

6)What about previous games do you like?

There are other basic questions that I can't come up with now but they are out there.

But first I would like to answer these questions in two ways. One simply and Two through a fictitious AAR for one turn.

1)Playing this game I would like to.
Fight it to the death with another noble house.
Partake in daring lightning raids.
Be able to use tech gains to make unique forces.
Out-whit somone dimplomatically.
Find really cool stuff in ruins.
Develop the leading members of my house into great leaders and generals.
Have really cool things to buy in the Agora.
Have more than one path to victory.
Build a huge amount of things from Battleships to infastructure.

..to name a few
2) Conduct major offensives and win a major battle or two.
Be able to strike a lighning raid on the captial planet of my rival.
Discover gold in them thar hills. (or somthing alien)
Recruit Muster Mercenaries.
Set up an automatic trade route.

..among others

3) Needless and not fun details like what was prevalent in MOO3.
A clunky interface.
Throwing away much needed resources on a crappy tactical fighting aspect of the game.
Having to wait to long to get anything done (one problem with EFS)
Limited options
Each game looking like each other game.
Everybody having the same tactics.

4) Being able to find more than one way to win and not just have the game be one big battle of attrition.

Having the ability to come back after major defeats.

5) Being able to rename everything so you can put your stamp on it.

A clean interface (my dream is to be able to customize windows).

Cool random events and even cooler major computer plot lines that are different for each game.

6) Will include this stuff in later conversations.

Game turn yy (first three months of the year xxxx)

House Hazat drags into its 4 year of wars on two fronts. The apparant decisive victory over House Li Halan was foiled by the timely and suprising arrival of Vorox shock troops. These tremendous beast through back the armoured infantry of Count Raul Hazat as it attempted to surround the city of Kwanh Ha. Hazat fighter bombers hampered the Vorox and allowd Raul's 3rd Army escape.

More seriously the Caliphate raid on Vera Cruz has captured the wester tip of the norther continent and destroyed the oil refineries that are necessary for the war effort. The Ur Ukar gentera Xanthis is raising emergency forces to stem the tide.

Li Halan news is a bit more modest and subdued. The victory on Midian has been a boost to the moral of the house. However the biggest boon may have come from the ruins recently found on the Planet Icon. The discovery has been shrouded in mystery however. What has not been shrouded have been the bumper crops on Icon this year.

House Decados has finally conquered the holdings of House Van Gelder on the planet of Cavadus. Van Gelder house is all but extinct. To commemorate this victory the new Nikoli Class Dreadnought has been named the Van Gelder.

The other great events of these past months have been the fruits of the Hawkwood Al Malik alliance. Advanced forces under Baron Ryan Hawkwood have arrived on the planetIshkatar to assist on the retaking of Stigmata from the Symbiots. Ryan's force contains a core of power legions along with Muster Mercenaries and a wide aray of special forces. The main force under Duke Alexis himself will arrive within the year.
House Al Malik will be able to combat the symbiots and also the most virulent enemy of the house. The Ur Ukar rebellion.

Hawkwood news has not been all good these past months however. The death of the sister of the Duke, Countess Irene Hawkwood by assasins has angered the house. What was worse is that the assasins seem to have found safe haven under the umbrella of League protection. The protection seems bought and paid for. Though there have been no firm allegations rumors persist that the murderes were Decados agents. Irene was a shoe in for the office of Imperial eye. Since the last holder of the office (Alberto Hazat) was murdered last year in Byzantium Secundus, the office and the troops it commands have been idle.

In other news....

The heritic patriarch Devin Malado was executed in Jerusalem this week. The inquistion has now reached a fevor pitch in Holy terra. The new patriarch Mi Li Halan has formally severed ties from his house.

Rumors in Leagheim persist over the scandal of the theft of three Keys. One of these keys may be to the fabled world of house Justinian. League agents blame no one yet for the theft.


Excerpt from the Leaugheim news network...

<small>[ 10.10.2003, 04:36: Message edited by: Lord High Admiral ]</small>

Hi, excellent stuff and as far as I can see you used the background of the Fading Suns universe well.

First, and pretty much the only point I don't agree with, is the part about realism and historical accuracy. I think a science fiction setting needs to be, as much as any other setting, a believable world. Without that my scientific nature will make it impossible for me to fully enjoy it . Whether the laws of nature are identical to our own, is rather irrelevant. Whatever the rules are, everything must fit in and have as believable and as consistent explanation as possible and I call that being realistic.

The part about historical accuracy in my view conflicts with the latter AAR with details from the FS RPG books(?). Because the game is to be in the FS world, it needs to respect the history but, of course, we don't need to be so anal about it like in some historical gaming circles . However, coming back to my previous point about a believable and consistent setting, staying true to the FS world is important, don't you agree? No matter how much we then alter history within the actual game play. And there'll be the modding tools for greater leeway and alternate what ifs.

Then, to answer your questions.

1) I want to feel like I'm in control of a noble house, proud of my heritage. My peers admire me, commoners bow to me, my enemies fear me. My family will thrive and some day I will become the emperor. It is my legacy.

I want to feel like I'm the chosen of the Prophet. I advise my brothers and faithful followers in the matters of faith, crush heresies, spread the word of the Pancreator. One day I will fulfill my destiny as the patriarch, the true ruler of the Known Worlds.

I want to feel like I'm the one who is going to stop the suns from fading. I'm the mastermind with my guild at my command. I trade goods, control the jump gates, build the best weapons, lead the mightiest band of mercenaries, research the forbidden tech (if only the inquisitors would not find my hidden labs). With knowledge comes power.

To translate and summarise, I want to feel like I'm making a difference in the game and part of an epic. Whatever the faction I control is, noble house, sect, guild, cult, mercenary band, I want my piece of the Known Worlds and my (unique) path to victory.

A small bit about the uniqueness of factions (and game play). I don't like unrealistic things like technology that only some people can ever research. If you have the requisites, you should be able to research it. You can also steal it, find it, trade it. Uniqueness comes from randomising starting conditions, controlling what technology you give out, making discoveries through exploration, choosing different branches of the tech tree to research, customising your character, having varying winning conditions, making tough decisions when you don't have time or resources to have it all.

2) I want to be able to read about what happens in the universe. I want to make adjustments to my existing plans and set into motion plans that will possibly take years to come into fruition. I want to see that I'm going in the right direction. I want to admire my holdings. I want to explore new worlds, to discover Ur-artifacts, reveal secrets (not necessarily ever turn). I want to crush the rebellion with an iron fist. I don't want every turn to be full of work.

3) Too much micromanagement. The detail can and should be there eventually, even if it doesn't make a huge difference it spices up the game. I want to handle the details that fit my character in the game. I don't want to move each unit if I'm the leader of my house. I expect them to try to fulfill my goals to the best of their abilities.

Pseudo-humoristic approach. I take these games seriously. I don't want it to be like a bad episode of Star Trek.

4) Scheme, backstab, help, hinder, communicate, deceive, share, fight bitterly to the end. Don't particularly want to exterminate anyone out of the game. And at the end of the day, I want to be able read about my successes and learn from my failures. Being able to identify with my faction and customise its appearance.

5) Of EFS as it is now. The setting. Also the fact that there are only few such games and no single game is better in all areas.

For other games, that every game is different. This can be random positions for terrorists in Rogue Spear or a random universe with a lot of different events in Space Adventures in Inifinite Space. The best game that tells a story and does it is the King of Dragon Pass.

6) Here are a few ideas. Some I already mentioned.

EFS, there are many worlds and both ground and space warfare. As mentioned before, the setting.

MOO2, I can customise the ships.

Master of Magic, heroes, two different worlds.

Star Control 2, exploration, customising ship, gathering minerals .

Settlers, resources come from somewhere and get taken to some place that transforms them into something else.

Impossible to list all good games or talk about everything in this single post and I need to do some work too but I'll be back .

Part II.

Some Ideas about units.

I think the idea of unit "shells" would work best for this setting. Each shell would house front units and support units. For example a "corps" may house 3 infantry units in the front line and have 2 artillery units and a field hostpital unit in support. Units could be built togeter, divided and recombine. The amount of spaces in each shell could depend on the tech level of the player (representing advances in staff planning).

There would be 2 types of shells. Combat and special forces. Combat shells would be large combat formations with line and support units and have a leader assigned to it (much like Hearts of Iron). Combat shells would have ratings based on the units that make the shell up. They would also have special abilities based on unit make up. For example an all mechinized shell would have the explotiation special ability, this would be an extra movement and attack if the first attack was sucessful. Leaders would add their abilites to a shells. Combat stacks would have zones of control and be affected by them. Stacking would be simple one combat shell per hex. Dividing a shell would mean that one of the new subunits would have to move. Special forces would represent much smaller highley trained units. Spies, assasins and scouts(trackers) and body guards would be examples of units in a SF stack. They can serve as Headquarters for larger units (army groups) special ops, retinues and so on. They would be led by a leader just as combat units (one important support unit would be a ship so they can leave off planet without major transport). SF units could be stacked infinatly in a hex and not be affected by zocs and could acutally pass through enemy hexes. But in doing so could be detected and forced to retreat, captured or eliminated. SF would be seen by the other side if detected as "grey units" and could be used for black ops even if at peace with the target.

I like the shell idea because its so versitile. You can customize what your armies look like. It also takes nobles and officers from units and puts them as leaders of shells. It also goes with the idea of making these leaders as heroes (al la MOM) . I also like the idea of SF shells because it adds a variety of dirty tricks (also you can add scravers as a sf-only ones to be able to identify relics) This is the nucleus of an idea that welcomes feedback.

What do you think?

Well, your idea sounds pretty much like a limited version of the expanded version of the stacks (doh, what an oxymoron) from past. Sometimes limiting is good, however I personally want to try unlimited hierarchical stacking first.

The idea of having paramilitary or black ops units move through and behind front lines in favourable circumstances sounds good.

I too think that mixing unit types into armies, i.e. stacks, will be a positive thing and is a form of customising your faction's identity.

Some of these issues have been discussed before. Perhaps you should review these threads and maybe revive some of them from death or start a new thread on a particular topic for new discussion.

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• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Stacks - the great Debate</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">About units, divisions and armies</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Preliminary unit data</font></li>

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Lord High Admiral,
Shells sound a lot to me like stacks that are simply grouped and moved by default (without needing to select each individual unit).

In that sense, yes I think something should be added as it'll definitely make stack management easier.

The whole leader thing is a neat idea, and the basis for that already exists - officers and to a larger extent nobles. Someone did mention in the past to allow some Role Playing elements for nobles (so you could make each one have specific bonuses) and I suppose you could do the same on a smaller scale for officers or create an intermediate leader unit and leave officers with just their organisation (rally) bonus.

Black Ops/Espionage units being properly masked as rebels is already on the wishlist

The posts Macroz has highlighted are the ones to look at for the discussion that has gone before, the top part of the wishlist also has a summary of sorts of the discussion - stacks are one of those issues that nobody agreed upon and now has several possible variants

Keep the ideas comming!
- Deathifier

Part III. Fading Suns!

Now I will dazzle you with a list of fading suns aspects that I would like to see.

Feeling of reawakening, lost planets, Vulrock barbarians and the Caliphite, new worlds, Guild wars, Ukar Shantor Vorox Oburn, the more church the better, Jump keyes and charioteers, hidden ajendas, plot lines plot lines and more plot lines. Sathraists, artifiacts, hidden acadamies ( for training). A splinter of the Li Halan who did not convert. Having a lot of fun exploring the unknown. Longevity Drugs and mortal heros.

There is more coming, next will be the League.

Quick comment here.

Plot lines, so that the story is not always the same (kick Orion Guardian ass, kick Antarean ass), might be implemented in a strategy game like has been done in King of Dragon Pass. Small interrelated series of events, picked at random when certain preconditions are met, so each game is a unique epic (of course there's a limited number of those but enough). And option to turn them off or make them yourself while playing multiplayer games. They should be multiplayer aware though.

I don't know yet have Galactic Civilisations. Perhaps someone could describe how it does this?

One thing I'd like to see that you missed are the minor houses. Greatly expanded Symbiot and Vau presence too. As already discussed they should be playable too or you might have some of lesser houses as your allies.

Forgot about the minor houses. Will keep you posted. I have a list coming up "everything you can do at the Agora"

Sounds interesting, something more than buy/sell and blow up would be a nice addition to agoras

- Deathifier

On Agoras, what other options should there be?
Besides the fact that the League should build agoras on planets where there is a house
presence made known (Palace built). And besides the fact that they should be able to fill
more than one agora per planet (maybe they will build an extra one if the first is constantly
being emptied). Maybe the League can have mercs and agoras can deal with a specific sect
within the league (some offer resources, some offer League mercs, some offer units to be
bought-not mercs-house units.
I was also thinking of having 3 different HP values:
HP: Personnel Hit Points
MP: Personnel Mind Points (for Psy attacks)
SP: Structural Points (for specific attacks against the structural attributes)
The Agora can sell structural, you add personnel. This would also allow experience to be
transferred to higher end units from obsolete ones.
Loans and such would be accessible through the Diplomacy screen still. Not nessecarily a
change in the agoras, more of a change in the League AO, and the amount offered.

The Darkmage is Rising
Jakkan