Precoding
Moderator: Deathifier
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- Space Legionnaire
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Montana
Precoding
I sat down today to begin coding and realized something. Without the care package from Death, I dont even know what ya'll want the game to look like. I need this information before I start coding the engine. Then I thought that I would start on the AI aspects. But I dont have the summaries on the houses. I only know Decados is Devious as all hell, Hazat is warlike, but not overly so (they dont take sh*t from anyone) and Hawkwood is Honorable. I don't know too much about Li-Halan and al-Malik.
I also cannot start coding graphics into and engine that doesnt exist (even if I had someone who could do graphics) So I started writing down what I want the unit tree to look like. So far, I have a lot of units.
One aspect of Civ II that I liked was the obsolete units. Since there should be no point to building obsolete units in the game I think this would be good. Also a series of flags similar as well to civ II for unit abilities. Unfortunately, I was counting these earlier and I have at least 20 flags, and more keep popping up.
One of the things that drives this so high is the ability to build cities. I have seperated the ability to build and raze cities as well as the ability to build levels of cities. This roughly translates into one unit being able to build harvest cities at verious levels (yes I am putting in upgrades to the mine and well to go with the farm) and another unit (or a higher tech one with the previous abilities) to build level 1 production facilities, another for factories/ starports/ forts, another for higher level production such as fusoriums, cyclotrons, wetware and the like.
I was also thinking of spy abilities. If a spy is created from a scientist, for example, then an enemies tech can be sabotaged so, say, a Meson Cannon won't do quite as much damage as it would normally. Or a resource can't be produced as fast.
Combining one with a merchant can steal more money than a normal spy. I have more ideas like this, but I write them down at work and I left them in the car.
How many tech levels do we want in the game? I was thinking a lot for continuation of research when research is completed, but this creates a lot of time consuming problems for anyone wanting to make a mod.
One of the things that I want to see in this is the ability to nstall mods within the game, as opposed to reinstalling the game in a different spot if you wish to have more than one mod installed on your computer.
Any other ideas would be welcome
The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan
I also cannot start coding graphics into and engine that doesnt exist (even if I had someone who could do graphics) So I started writing down what I want the unit tree to look like. So far, I have a lot of units.
One aspect of Civ II that I liked was the obsolete units. Since there should be no point to building obsolete units in the game I think this would be good. Also a series of flags similar as well to civ II for unit abilities. Unfortunately, I was counting these earlier and I have at least 20 flags, and more keep popping up.
One of the things that drives this so high is the ability to build cities. I have seperated the ability to build and raze cities as well as the ability to build levels of cities. This roughly translates into one unit being able to build harvest cities at verious levels (yes I am putting in upgrades to the mine and well to go with the farm) and another unit (or a higher tech one with the previous abilities) to build level 1 production facilities, another for factories/ starports/ forts, another for higher level production such as fusoriums, cyclotrons, wetware and the like.
I was also thinking of spy abilities. If a spy is created from a scientist, for example, then an enemies tech can be sabotaged so, say, a Meson Cannon won't do quite as much damage as it would normally. Or a resource can't be produced as fast.
Combining one with a merchant can steal more money than a normal spy. I have more ideas like this, but I write them down at work and I left them in the car.
How many tech levels do we want in the game? I was thinking a lot for continuation of research when research is completed, but this creates a lot of time consuming problems for anyone wanting to make a mod.
One of the things that I want to see in this is the ability to nstall mods within the game, as opposed to reinstalling the game in a different spot if you wish to have more than one mod installed on your computer.
Any other ideas would be welcome
The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan
Re: Precoding
A quick answer for now. Li Halan are religous (fanatics) and al-Malik are high tech (wealthy traders). Someone else can fill in more detail .
About obsolete units. Ok but FS world is not very high tech or at least it's very expensive to build and maintain technology so I would imagine you need some low cost units for backwater planets.
About the graphics. I think most wanted something like EFS but with updated graphics. My idea is in my pages but you should probably skip that to please the others . There's nothing wrong with EFS graphics. I like them more than anything from Sid.
About obsolete units. Ok but FS world is not very high tech or at least it's very expensive to build and maintain technology so I would imagine you need some low cost units for backwater planets.
About the graphics. I think most wanted something like EFS but with updated graphics. My idea is in my pages but you should probably skip that to please the others . There's nothing wrong with EFS graphics. I like them more than anything from Sid.
Re: Precoding
I really like the Fading Suns universe, and have many of the books. I'll give a basic summary of some things..
Li-halan: They were originally like Decados, until they had an "overnight" conversion to the Orthodox church, and are now the most religious of the houses. They despise the Decados, and envy the discipline of the Hazat.
Hazat: Are always looking for ways to make their house "legitimate", because they basically took over the house and planets from the Chauki. Now there are Chauki on the planet Iver outside of Pandemonium (or so they say), so they're always looking to get rid of them. Hazat are a disciplined and military nation, they are not war mongers, but take pride in their traditions, veterans, etc.
Decados: Decados are cunning, and use spies, drugs, assasinations, etc, to get their way. They were at one time considered to be the most powerful house military wise, but they fought with many houses...including Li-halan on Malignatius. They are bitter rivals with the Hawkwoods.
Hawkwood: Considered noble, but arrogant and selfish. They are courageous and are somewhat the "knights" of EFS. Emperor Alexius rises from this house and becomes emperor. They were very good in diplomacy and gaining allies, as they were not that powerful themselves.
Al-malik: Are considered supporters of a republic. They are merchants. They are very friendly and treat guests very well. Envy the Hazat's battle tactics. Very good friends with the league.
As Macroz said, high tech units are hard to come by. It is kinda ridiculous at the masses of high tech units that can be created in EFS right now, and extremely unrealistic. Dreadnaughts, mega tanks, etc, are too easy to build. Many battles were fought with howitzers, anti-tank guns, infantry, etc., and when a "golem" unit was on the battlefield, they would be greatly feared. (Golem unit in the sense they are wrapped in metal, like power legions, assault legions, etc.)
You should check out www.holistic-design.com and look at their artwork. It is very distinct, and I think most people would want units reflecting that. EFS is basically a medievil world set in the future, rather than a futuristic world in itself.
I like the idea of the mods. It seems as if you'll be adding units and technologies that do not exist in the fading suns universe, so it would be good for people to make mods strictly based around fading suns.
Li-halan: They were originally like Decados, until they had an "overnight" conversion to the Orthodox church, and are now the most religious of the houses. They despise the Decados, and envy the discipline of the Hazat.
Hazat: Are always looking for ways to make their house "legitimate", because they basically took over the house and planets from the Chauki. Now there are Chauki on the planet Iver outside of Pandemonium (or so they say), so they're always looking to get rid of them. Hazat are a disciplined and military nation, they are not war mongers, but take pride in their traditions, veterans, etc.
Decados: Decados are cunning, and use spies, drugs, assasinations, etc, to get their way. They were at one time considered to be the most powerful house military wise, but they fought with many houses...including Li-halan on Malignatius. They are bitter rivals with the Hawkwoods.
Hawkwood: Considered noble, but arrogant and selfish. They are courageous and are somewhat the "knights" of EFS. Emperor Alexius rises from this house and becomes emperor. They were very good in diplomacy and gaining allies, as they were not that powerful themselves.
Al-malik: Are considered supporters of a republic. They are merchants. They are very friendly and treat guests very well. Envy the Hazat's battle tactics. Very good friends with the league.
As Macroz said, high tech units are hard to come by. It is kinda ridiculous at the masses of high tech units that can be created in EFS right now, and extremely unrealistic. Dreadnaughts, mega tanks, etc, are too easy to build. Many battles were fought with howitzers, anti-tank guns, infantry, etc., and when a "golem" unit was on the battlefield, they would be greatly feared. (Golem unit in the sense they are wrapped in metal, like power legions, assault legions, etc.)
You should check out www.holistic-design.com and look at their artwork. It is very distinct, and I think most people would want units reflecting that. EFS is basically a medievil world set in the future, rather than a futuristic world in itself.
I like the idea of the mods. It seems as if you'll be adding units and technologies that do not exist in the fading suns universe, so it would be good for people to make mods strictly based around fading suns.
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- Tank commander
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2000 2:01 am
- Location: Badjeros, Ontario, Canada
Re: Precoding
A good refrence for how much military might the houses should have on a regular basis would be the novel Dune, which is pretty much what the FS universe was based on. They pretty much just have basic infantry the whole time.
Re: Precoding
Well quoting the devil himself ... err ... Legions of the Empire FS supplement:
"Stigmata hosts seven legions: The Third, Fifth, Seventh. Ninth and Eleventh Imperial legions, the Manifest Light occult legion and the Scions of Zhal, a Brother Battle legion. The Third, Seventh and Eleventh legions are based at Darmak Station; the latter two mainly specialize in cavalry and air support. The Fifth, Ninth, based in Sylan, are mainly infantry units. The Scions of Zhal, based in Darmak but with companies in Sylan, consists of equal parts elite infantry and cavalry. Manifest Light soldiers are assigned to various units throughout Stigmata, in space and planetside
...
Each legion is composed of about 10000 troops and has about five regiments. ..."
Now this is the largest and most heavily armed post Emperor Wars force. I would gather the unit size in EFS could be regiment so that would bean 35 units on Stigmata. Of course the houses can conscript quite a lot of men but what use are sticks and stones against blasters? (potentially they can make a difference). Stigmata has its share of tanks, hoppers, even golems (sanctioned by the church here only) so the best of the best are there (with the exception of elite house guards and the Phoenix Guard of Alexius). During Emperor Wars the houses naturally had more troops armed (which is the period of EFS) so maybe one could justify larger armies (or make the units smaller => more).
Modability is important so that everyone can make his/her own ideal game or tweak to as close or as far away from FS as possible. I for one want to reflect the fall fallen from grace medieval society with tech bits here and there facing a grim future of fading suns . I think the best mods will outlive the weird ones so there wont be too many different ones.
"Stigmata hosts seven legions: The Third, Fifth, Seventh. Ninth and Eleventh Imperial legions, the Manifest Light occult legion and the Scions of Zhal, a Brother Battle legion. The Third, Seventh and Eleventh legions are based at Darmak Station; the latter two mainly specialize in cavalry and air support. The Fifth, Ninth, based in Sylan, are mainly infantry units. The Scions of Zhal, based in Darmak but with companies in Sylan, consists of equal parts elite infantry and cavalry. Manifest Light soldiers are assigned to various units throughout Stigmata, in space and planetside
...
Each legion is composed of about 10000 troops and has about five regiments. ..."
Now this is the largest and most heavily armed post Emperor Wars force. I would gather the unit size in EFS could be regiment so that would bean 35 units on Stigmata. Of course the houses can conscript quite a lot of men but what use are sticks and stones against blasters? (potentially they can make a difference). Stigmata has its share of tanks, hoppers, even golems (sanctioned by the church here only) so the best of the best are there (with the exception of elite house guards and the Phoenix Guard of Alexius). During Emperor Wars the houses naturally had more troops armed (which is the period of EFS) so maybe one could justify larger armies (or make the units smaller => more).
Modability is important so that everyone can make his/her own ideal game or tweak to as close or as far away from FS as possible. I for one want to reflect the fall fallen from grace medieval society with tech bits here and there facing a grim future of fading suns . I think the best mods will outlive the weird ones so there wont be too many different ones.
Re: Precoding
EFS units representing regiments would be good. Like having 50 militia all stacked into one unit for a hefty conscription price, and they could go toe to toe with a unit much more powerful than them.
Though the EFS descriptions of units show that they perhaps are used in larger numbers, so I think most of the golem units were dismantled/destroyed after the emperor wars, as the books usually describe them as rare.
And there came a mighty wrench, akin to that sound produced by the servos of the war-golems; and lo! the ceramsteel vault door flew from its moorings with a thunderous groan, as of a dirge-bell tolling its doleful paean. And answering that call, in a great unending crescendo, advanced wave after wave of the heathen Grimsons, klaj in their veins and madness in their song and naught but emptiest Shadow in their stare. And the very stars wept and flickered anew, as the Battle-Brothers were borne down under the weight of that Stygian tide.
Wave after wave...of course, a massive limit to EFS was the fact there could only be 20 units in a stack. If that is kept, perhaps some units could be combined so they are not utterly obselete. Like having 5 frigates be able to be used or 1 dreadnaught in a slot. Because when 20 militia is used in a group, it is completely useless. It'd be very cool if in the late games of EFS, units like militia, infantry, heavy infantry, frigates, etc, were being used, instant of basically all mega tanks, dna assault legions, martyr fighters, and dreadnaughts.
Though the EFS descriptions of units show that they perhaps are used in larger numbers, so I think most of the golem units were dismantled/destroyed after the emperor wars, as the books usually describe them as rare.
And there came a mighty wrench, akin to that sound produced by the servos of the war-golems; and lo! the ceramsteel vault door flew from its moorings with a thunderous groan, as of a dirge-bell tolling its doleful paean. And answering that call, in a great unending crescendo, advanced wave after wave of the heathen Grimsons, klaj in their veins and madness in their song and naught but emptiest Shadow in their stare. And the very stars wept and flickered anew, as the Battle-Brothers were borne down under the weight of that Stygian tide.
Wave after wave...of course, a massive limit to EFS was the fact there could only be 20 units in a stack. If that is kept, perhaps some units could be combined so they are not utterly obselete. Like having 5 frigates be able to be used or 1 dreadnaught in a slot. Because when 20 militia is used in a group, it is completely useless. It'd be very cool if in the late games of EFS, units like militia, infantry, heavy infantry, frigates, etc, were being used, instant of basically all mega tanks, dna assault legions, martyr fighters, and dreadnaughts.
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- Space Legionnaire
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Montana
Re: Precoding
Problems with EFS
Production
Problem: Late in the game turns take an hour or more, half of which is due to continuing build orders.
Fix: Advance orders (I want to build 10 of these units here)
Mass Orders (I want 20 of this unit as soon as possible)
Movement
Problem: Certain units are restricted by linear movement
Fix: Area of Operations implemented
Problem: Unit cannot reach designated area in time.
Fix: Movefast option (use movement from a futire turn to reach an area this turn 120% move through 200% move depending upon unit
Problem: Unit usually seen long before attack
Fix: Stealth mode implemented for all units (raised Camo, Spot, and Agility, slowed movement
Problem: Outkmaneuvering non-existant (Victory usually depends on a bulk of an army crashing the front lines)
Fix: Implement facing (depending upon the size of a unit, up to 2 hex faces. Anything else is rear or flank attack, bonus to the attacker)
Micromanagement
Problem: For the game to get bigger and better, micromanagement needs to be cut down to have roughly what is within the game now.
Fix: Long term commands such as patrol and garrison
Planetary Governors implemented
Random Events
Problem: Random Events are nonexistant
Fix: Random Natural Events such as Solar Flares, Massive Tropical Storms, Meteor showers, earthquakes, stc.
Rebel Resurgences happen every once in a while just because. (The US is one of the most popular country on the planet, and while it doesnt usualy have an impact, they do surge up every once in a while and cause problems.
Special Abilities
Problem: Abilities are Hard-coded into the game
Fix Flags, similar to Civ II (this may cause a few problems as I have so far come up with 23 flags and I keep coming up with more and forgetting them)
Single Attack Units
Problem: Plague Bombs are the only single attack unit, and they are not always 100% single attack, as well as the obvious problems with the plague
Fix: Missiles similar to Civ II. Also a few other single attack units (kamikaze aircraft, etc)
Technology
Problem: It is possible to research all technologies within 25 turns
Fix: Larger Tech Tree. (500+, possibley 1000 technologies..NOT meant to all be researched, only there to continue research as the game progresses)
Problem: No Individual Technology
Fix: Individual Tech Trees with simialar and same (at low levels) technology until high levels
Problem: Aliens begin at 1 level and remain there throughout the game (the symbiots cease to be a threat after 30 - 50 turns)
Fix: Alien Tech Tree, slower research and not as many techs, but by the time we catch up to them, they should be staying ahead of us. At the end of their tech tree, we should be right behind them in technology
Units
Problem: No unit is able to be built by only one house
Fix: Individual Unit Trees to go with Individual Tech Trees
Spy Abilities
Problem: Only abilities of Spy are attack on Byz II and (Assassin and Doppelganger) target high ranks
Fix: Steal Tech/Money/Resources
Sabotage Tech/Production/Resources
Destroy Upgrade/City/City Cluster/Roads
Hostage Taking Capability
Bribe units
Problem: With all of the above abilities, Spies become very powerful
Fix: Seperate spies into categories. Combine them with other units or have their root unit be different to reflect different training. ONE unit cannot have this much power, it is too much.
Cities
Problem: Farm is the only Harvest or Production city with an upgrade
Fix: Harvest Cities 1-4
Production Cities 1-4 (less resources used as method gets more refined, and more resources produced)
Build Only Cities 1-3 (Fort, Factory, Starport)(Less time and resources required for units)
Shield 1-3 (# = square root od Shield Radius)
Road 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0 (# is movecost for the road - actually gives a use for roads, QUICK troop transport)
One Word: BRIGDE (you think if we can build a Spaceship that we can build a brigde across the ocean)
Problem: Cities Stagnate
Fix: Citeis can Upgrade themselves(with permission of course), fortify themselves with built in AA, ATG's and other mounted weapons, and set up defenses to raise the Armor of defending units
Engineer
Problem: Takes too long to make and too many resources to build
Fix: Engineers are available whenever you want them. Citeis take time and resources to build
Planets
Problem: Not enough Variety
Fix: Gas Giants (massive resources), moons (close defense point for a planet), Toxic Atmosphere (Only certain units can land there, but it will need to be worthwhile)
Byzantium II
Problem: Imperial Guard Inactive
Fix: Better AI for the Guard (their own AI)
Problem: Only certain Units can attack on Byz II
Fix: Anyone can attack on Byz II, however, the Imperial Guard will fully investigate this action (usually resulting in them kicking you off the planet for a bit, or pulling you from the election for a vote, or just kickin your a**
Movement Types
Now, while there are many movement types, there arent quite enough. Since I would like to have a map (similar to the current planet map) for solar systems, I have redefined the space movement types. there should not be only 3 types for space movement. The movement types I have come up with are
Space: Just like space now
Space Only: Since I would like to have some sort of Space production Facility, it would stand to reason that a unit that cannot land on a planet would come next
Space Lander: For those Non-Jump capable Invasion Landers
Space Atmosheric: For those who like their space fighters to strafe planets (vulnerable to AA while in this form)
Jump: Just like Jump movement now
Jump Only: Similar to Space Only with Jump capability. For those Gargantuan Dreadnoughts and Space Carriers (and anything bigger that one can think of)(shudders at the thought of something bigger than a Dreadnought)
Jump Lander: Just like Lander movement now
Jump Atmosheric: Just a Space Atmospheric fighter with a Singularity on board
Jump Flagship: Some people like the ability to change their movement abilities on their Flagships
Other movement types I have come up with include
Foot 1-3 One for normal Foot movement, one for Nobles, and one for Spies and other covert ops specialists
Wheel Trucks, Cars, Troop Transports, etc
Crawler 1-2 For those who like different types of movement on thier really big guns
Crawler 3 Symbiot tanks and the like more of an Organic Crawler or Organic Tread
Tread Self Explanitory
Hover Hovercraft (compresed air lift) stays low to the ground, slow in heavily wooded areas, mountains, and needs to stay somewhat near shore (2-3 hexes or so I would say)
Anti-Gravity For the true Hover Tanks hovers at a good distance from the ground and has good shielding over anti grav generators
Anti-Grav 2 For the Vau, they are of a much higher technology than we are
Air Just like Air movement in EFS
Naval 1-3 One for your warships, one for your transports and carriers and one for your sub-oceanic endeavors
Finally, the Universal Movement Type: For those multi-purpose units like SEALs and the like.
I was also thinking of having extra movement types just in case I forgot something I believe there are 24 movement types here, rounding it out to 30 just sounds good
Most or all of these movement types should have an Area of Operations and a movefast option. Whether it uses a future movement or extra resources needs to be discussed, but I like the movefast option.
Unfortunately, I was only able to come up with a few more Attack types, but they all seem to fit. I thought that since Holistic wanted Psychic attacks to work in space, I would make a seperate Psy Space attack. Also, since space is now a map, not a few squares, ranged space seems more like an indirect attack form, so I added Space Bombardment. Even though I only came up with a few more attack types, there seems to be more due to 2 things. the addition of shields to armor one is affected by balistic weapons, one is by energy weapons. that kinda doubles every attack type. Also, the SEALs first strike capability intrigued me, so I made a First Strike ability, which takes place before normal attack round. and Each attack type should be able to have First Strike or not, not just each unit. Here is a list of the Attack types, remember, each one has Balistic, Energy, and First Strike
Water
Underwater
Indirect
Artillery
Air
Direct
Close
Psychic
Ranged Space
Indirect Space
Direct Space
Close Space
Psychic Space
Space Bombardment
Same thing as above, Just in case I forgot something I will roud it out to 20
A side note with Nobles:
there should be like a 5 or 10% chance per turn per noble to produce an heir. This heir would be unuseable for 18 or 20 turns even though the unit icon is there. This icon must also stay with a noble or perish. After having one so many turns, there should be a cummulative chance that the Noble will die of old age. The young Noble makes it interesting as you can take him/her hostage and demand payment, refusing which would damage your reputation (cept maybe Decados as theirs is already bad) and decrease unit and city loyalty.
The last thing that I have to add for now is that the Unit experience table should be more indepth
Green: Loyalty(in battle only) .75, Acc/Dmg/Armor .8
Normal: Everything Normal
Experienced: Loy 1.25 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.2
Veteran: Loy 1.5 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.4
Elite: Loy 2.0 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.8
Men In Black*: Loy Unroutable Acc/Dmg/Arm 2.5
*Best of the Best of the Best (ran out of names)
Officers should be the only ones seriously affected by this as the more experienced they get, the higher in rank and therefore loyalty bonus gets higher as well.
I would stay here and talk half the night, but I gotta work in the morning
The Darkmage is Rising
Jakkan
Production
Problem: Late in the game turns take an hour or more, half of which is due to continuing build orders.
Fix: Advance orders (I want to build 10 of these units here)
Mass Orders (I want 20 of this unit as soon as possible)
Movement
Problem: Certain units are restricted by linear movement
Fix: Area of Operations implemented
Problem: Unit cannot reach designated area in time.
Fix: Movefast option (use movement from a futire turn to reach an area this turn 120% move through 200% move depending upon unit
Problem: Unit usually seen long before attack
Fix: Stealth mode implemented for all units (raised Camo, Spot, and Agility, slowed movement
Problem: Outkmaneuvering non-existant (Victory usually depends on a bulk of an army crashing the front lines)
Fix: Implement facing (depending upon the size of a unit, up to 2 hex faces. Anything else is rear or flank attack, bonus to the attacker)
Micromanagement
Problem: For the game to get bigger and better, micromanagement needs to be cut down to have roughly what is within the game now.
Fix: Long term commands such as patrol and garrison
Planetary Governors implemented
Random Events
Problem: Random Events are nonexistant
Fix: Random Natural Events such as Solar Flares, Massive Tropical Storms, Meteor showers, earthquakes, stc.
Rebel Resurgences happen every once in a while just because. (The US is one of the most popular country on the planet, and while it doesnt usualy have an impact, they do surge up every once in a while and cause problems.
Special Abilities
Problem: Abilities are Hard-coded into the game
Fix Flags, similar to Civ II (this may cause a few problems as I have so far come up with 23 flags and I keep coming up with more and forgetting them)
Single Attack Units
Problem: Plague Bombs are the only single attack unit, and they are not always 100% single attack, as well as the obvious problems with the plague
Fix: Missiles similar to Civ II. Also a few other single attack units (kamikaze aircraft, etc)
Technology
Problem: It is possible to research all technologies within 25 turns
Fix: Larger Tech Tree. (500+, possibley 1000 technologies..NOT meant to all be researched, only there to continue research as the game progresses)
Problem: No Individual Technology
Fix: Individual Tech Trees with simialar and same (at low levels) technology until high levels
Problem: Aliens begin at 1 level and remain there throughout the game (the symbiots cease to be a threat after 30 - 50 turns)
Fix: Alien Tech Tree, slower research and not as many techs, but by the time we catch up to them, they should be staying ahead of us. At the end of their tech tree, we should be right behind them in technology
Units
Problem: No unit is able to be built by only one house
Fix: Individual Unit Trees to go with Individual Tech Trees
Spy Abilities
Problem: Only abilities of Spy are attack on Byz II and (Assassin and Doppelganger) target high ranks
Fix: Steal Tech/Money/Resources
Sabotage Tech/Production/Resources
Destroy Upgrade/City/City Cluster/Roads
Hostage Taking Capability
Bribe units
Problem: With all of the above abilities, Spies become very powerful
Fix: Seperate spies into categories. Combine them with other units or have their root unit be different to reflect different training. ONE unit cannot have this much power, it is too much.
Cities
Problem: Farm is the only Harvest or Production city with an upgrade
Fix: Harvest Cities 1-4
Production Cities 1-4 (less resources used as method gets more refined, and more resources produced)
Build Only Cities 1-3 (Fort, Factory, Starport)(Less time and resources required for units)
Shield 1-3 (# = square root od Shield Radius)
Road 1, 0.5, 0.25, 0 (# is movecost for the road - actually gives a use for roads, QUICK troop transport)
One Word: BRIGDE (you think if we can build a Spaceship that we can build a brigde across the ocean)
Problem: Cities Stagnate
Fix: Citeis can Upgrade themselves(with permission of course), fortify themselves with built in AA, ATG's and other mounted weapons, and set up defenses to raise the Armor of defending units
Engineer
Problem: Takes too long to make and too many resources to build
Fix: Engineers are available whenever you want them. Citeis take time and resources to build
Planets
Problem: Not enough Variety
Fix: Gas Giants (massive resources), moons (close defense point for a planet), Toxic Atmosphere (Only certain units can land there, but it will need to be worthwhile)
Byzantium II
Problem: Imperial Guard Inactive
Fix: Better AI for the Guard (their own AI)
Problem: Only certain Units can attack on Byz II
Fix: Anyone can attack on Byz II, however, the Imperial Guard will fully investigate this action (usually resulting in them kicking you off the planet for a bit, or pulling you from the election for a vote, or just kickin your a**
Movement Types
Now, while there are many movement types, there arent quite enough. Since I would like to have a map (similar to the current planet map) for solar systems, I have redefined the space movement types. there should not be only 3 types for space movement. The movement types I have come up with are
Space: Just like space now
Space Only: Since I would like to have some sort of Space production Facility, it would stand to reason that a unit that cannot land on a planet would come next
Space Lander: For those Non-Jump capable Invasion Landers
Space Atmosheric: For those who like their space fighters to strafe planets (vulnerable to AA while in this form)
Jump: Just like Jump movement now
Jump Only: Similar to Space Only with Jump capability. For those Gargantuan Dreadnoughts and Space Carriers (and anything bigger that one can think of)(shudders at the thought of something bigger than a Dreadnought)
Jump Lander: Just like Lander movement now
Jump Atmosheric: Just a Space Atmospheric fighter with a Singularity on board
Jump Flagship: Some people like the ability to change their movement abilities on their Flagships
Other movement types I have come up with include
Foot 1-3 One for normal Foot movement, one for Nobles, and one for Spies and other covert ops specialists
Wheel Trucks, Cars, Troop Transports, etc
Crawler 1-2 For those who like different types of movement on thier really big guns
Crawler 3 Symbiot tanks and the like more of an Organic Crawler or Organic Tread
Tread Self Explanitory
Hover Hovercraft (compresed air lift) stays low to the ground, slow in heavily wooded areas, mountains, and needs to stay somewhat near shore (2-3 hexes or so I would say)
Anti-Gravity For the true Hover Tanks hovers at a good distance from the ground and has good shielding over anti grav generators
Anti-Grav 2 For the Vau, they are of a much higher technology than we are
Air Just like Air movement in EFS
Naval 1-3 One for your warships, one for your transports and carriers and one for your sub-oceanic endeavors
Finally, the Universal Movement Type: For those multi-purpose units like SEALs and the like.
I was also thinking of having extra movement types just in case I forgot something I believe there are 24 movement types here, rounding it out to 30 just sounds good
Most or all of these movement types should have an Area of Operations and a movefast option. Whether it uses a future movement or extra resources needs to be discussed, but I like the movefast option.
Unfortunately, I was only able to come up with a few more Attack types, but they all seem to fit. I thought that since Holistic wanted Psychic attacks to work in space, I would make a seperate Psy Space attack. Also, since space is now a map, not a few squares, ranged space seems more like an indirect attack form, so I added Space Bombardment. Even though I only came up with a few more attack types, there seems to be more due to 2 things. the addition of shields to armor one is affected by balistic weapons, one is by energy weapons. that kinda doubles every attack type. Also, the SEALs first strike capability intrigued me, so I made a First Strike ability, which takes place before normal attack round. and Each attack type should be able to have First Strike or not, not just each unit. Here is a list of the Attack types, remember, each one has Balistic, Energy, and First Strike
Water
Underwater
Indirect
Artillery
Air
Direct
Close
Psychic
Ranged Space
Indirect Space
Direct Space
Close Space
Psychic Space
Space Bombardment
Same thing as above, Just in case I forgot something I will roud it out to 20
A side note with Nobles:
there should be like a 5 or 10% chance per turn per noble to produce an heir. This heir would be unuseable for 18 or 20 turns even though the unit icon is there. This icon must also stay with a noble or perish. After having one so many turns, there should be a cummulative chance that the Noble will die of old age. The young Noble makes it interesting as you can take him/her hostage and demand payment, refusing which would damage your reputation (cept maybe Decados as theirs is already bad) and decrease unit and city loyalty.
The last thing that I have to add for now is that the Unit experience table should be more indepth
Green: Loyalty(in battle only) .75, Acc/Dmg/Armor .8
Normal: Everything Normal
Experienced: Loy 1.25 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.2
Veteran: Loy 1.5 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.4
Elite: Loy 2.0 Acc/Dmg/Arm 1.8
Men In Black*: Loy Unroutable Acc/Dmg/Arm 2.5
*Best of the Best of the Best (ran out of names)
Officers should be the only ones seriously affected by this as the more experienced they get, the higher in rank and therefore loyalty bonus gets higher as well.
I would stay here and talk half the night, but I gotta work in the morning
The Darkmage is Rising
Jakkan
Re: Precoding
Some awesome ideas in that list...though a few I think shouldn't happen...like 500-1000 technologies seems absurd, perhaps make them harder to research, or make the Church's wrath huge so holding a forbidden technology for 5-10 turns is a big deal, then the church destroys it.
The idea of engineers being available, and cities taking multiple turns is a great idea. I don't see why engineers take 4 turns to build in EFS, yet the city is 1 turn.
Being able to decide that you want to build 10 tanks in one factory until they are all done or you don't have the resources would be awesome.
Also, I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but I think artillery should be able to fire a few hexes away without retribution (except by other artillery), but be very inaccurate.
The idea of engineers being available, and cities taking multiple turns is a great idea. I don't see why engineers take 4 turns to build in EFS, yet the city is 1 turn.
Being able to decide that you want to build 10 tanks in one factory until they are all done or you don't have the resources would be awesome.
Also, I don't know if this has been discussed or not, but I think artillery should be able to fire a few hexes away without retribution (except by other artillery), but be very inaccurate.
Re: Precoding
Ok. I have some thoughts (yeah, honest ).
Since the hex size is so large regular artillery shooting to other hexes is not realistic but I'd settle for some missile/rocket artillery able to strike the next hex (for missiles further away) and be immune to direct etc. fire phases in combat since they are out of range.
Also the unit facing is not quite realistic since the units are big units in a huge area. Maneuvering will come from the fact that the attacker is trying to cause damage and the defender is trying to protect his assets. Also EFS does not take into account terrain type at all which might be considered for this effect (although not very realistic either). I'm sure there are better ideas for this. Even the fact that you really cannot fill a world with units means you need to be able to wield a mobile force or concentrate on a small corner of the planet (which leaves the other areas for exploitation and makes the assault on planets somewhat less tedious since the battles will be concentrated but also allows for guerilla warfare by units in the remote areas etc. etc.).
To be able to manage the large bodies of (low tech) troops I think it should be possible to add units together to form more powerful single unit (or group) and that reduces the stack of 20-50 spearmen into one manageable entity. It should also be possible to produce these large entities straight. Either the 20 individual units stop existing or stacks are in fact trees.
We must remember that even though there might be a significant advantage in numbers when this unit is attacking for example a Brother Battle unit (which in fact has less than 10000 men) we must remember these are largery (forcibly drafted) peasants which will rout after the Brothers have decimated the first few ranks, unless in a very desperate situation (invasion to home planet, no way to escape, driven mad by psychics or presence of noble, symbiot hordes).
About the tech tree (for a FS mod) I agree with Russel. I think there should be less than 500 techs because we wont be able to come up with that many .
Random events are fun for single player but I hope they are not too deciding in a multiplayer game.
With the solar system map you are approaching my ideas but we must remember one good point: there are what ~ 40 systems and with the ~10 planets each there is 400 planetoids to fight on . Ok classify most of them uninhabitable (and moons would be very small). Maybe it's possible to enlargen the 3x3 space square in the current large map to include few interesting planets in each system and implement moving in that for the ships. Something like 10x10 or so.
Ok this is enough for now. Waiting for Deathifier's summary of our earlier ideas.
Since the hex size is so large regular artillery shooting to other hexes is not realistic but I'd settle for some missile/rocket artillery able to strike the next hex (for missiles further away) and be immune to direct etc. fire phases in combat since they are out of range.
Also the unit facing is not quite realistic since the units are big units in a huge area. Maneuvering will come from the fact that the attacker is trying to cause damage and the defender is trying to protect his assets. Also EFS does not take into account terrain type at all which might be considered for this effect (although not very realistic either). I'm sure there are better ideas for this. Even the fact that you really cannot fill a world with units means you need to be able to wield a mobile force or concentrate on a small corner of the planet (which leaves the other areas for exploitation and makes the assault on planets somewhat less tedious since the battles will be concentrated but also allows for guerilla warfare by units in the remote areas etc. etc.).
To be able to manage the large bodies of (low tech) troops I think it should be possible to add units together to form more powerful single unit (or group) and that reduces the stack of 20-50 spearmen into one manageable entity. It should also be possible to produce these large entities straight. Either the 20 individual units stop existing or stacks are in fact trees.
We must remember that even though there might be a significant advantage in numbers when this unit is attacking for example a Brother Battle unit (which in fact has less than 10000 men) we must remember these are largery (forcibly drafted) peasants which will rout after the Brothers have decimated the first few ranks, unless in a very desperate situation (invasion to home planet, no way to escape, driven mad by psychics or presence of noble, symbiot hordes).
About the tech tree (for a FS mod) I agree with Russel. I think there should be less than 500 techs because we wont be able to come up with that many .
Random events are fun for single player but I hope they are not too deciding in a multiplayer game.
With the solar system map you are approaching my ideas but we must remember one good point: there are what ~ 40 systems and with the ~10 planets each there is 400 planetoids to fight on . Ok classify most of them uninhabitable (and moons would be very small). Maybe it's possible to enlargen the 3x3 space square in the current large map to include few interesting planets in each system and implement moving in that for the ships. Something like 10x10 or so.
Ok this is enough for now. Waiting for Deathifier's summary of our earlier ideas.
Re: Precoding
Well, let's say there were multiple planets in each system, couldn't the land size of planets be scaled down? So a small moon could have a very small land size, but be important as an outpost or such.
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- Noble
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Re: Precoding
There were some very good ideas in Jakkan's post, as well as some which were already in the Wish List. I've added a couple related to pre-existing items before posting the list and left some others out until they can be discussed.
So if there's a particular point you think should be added, bring it up!
On the topic of actual development, I am more than happy to work on and with someone elses engine provided it has the capability and flexibility required for a clone (clone in the sense of gameplay, not necessarily graphics).
I no longer see any point to insisting on building my own if there's already one further along in development
- Deathifier
So if there's a particular point you think should be added, bring it up!
On the topic of actual development, I am more than happy to work on and with someone elses engine provided it has the capability and flexibility required for a clone (clone in the sense of gameplay, not necessarily graphics).
I no longer see any point to insisting on building my own if there's already one further along in development
- Deathifier
-
- Space Legionnaire
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Montana
Re: Precoding
The thing with 500 to 1000 technologies is not for all to be used right off the bat or even in every mod. It is to allow for anyone who wishes to come up with any and all technologies that they want to fit into the tech tree to be able to do so without penalty and without limit. I just thought that 1000 or so would be a good number for virtually unlimited research or ideas. I personally like the tech tree in EFS, but I can only add 6 techs due to scratched techs that the original designers used. Otherwise, I would have to teake techs away from somewhere else to do so.
With Artillery, Indirect and Artillery fire are two different things. Indirect is an in Combat attact for small mortars and the like, Artillery is for multi hex weapons like our own current (US Army) Avenger Artillery Battery and Battleships that can fire 200+ miles.
I actually came up with an idea to get large numbers of militia in comparison to smaller numbers of Golems. allow 1000 units in a hex. to offset power of units, a militia for example is a size 5, so 200 of these units can fit into one hex. While on the other hand, a DNA Assault Legion would be 150 or 200, so only 5-7 of these units will fit in the same hex. Then you have your space units, your smaller squadrons of fighters and bombers would be 50-75, while your gargantuan Dreadnoughts would be 500 or more (only 1 or 2 per hex) that way a large army of Frigates and destroyers, while maybe not being able to destroy the Dreadnought, they would be able to hurt it pretty bad.
As for the individual Tech Trees, most of the Technologies are similar or the same, however, they allow for House specific Tech, again in as much or as little abundance as you want. Another thing I was thinking of was the extreme high tech weaponry and units (such as Meson Cannons and Advanced Neurocellular Biografting of Ceramsteel Wetware Implants) could have need of cooperation between houses to research properly. Have 5 prerequisites for said technology, one from each house (including your own) but, you only need 3 or 4 to actually research the technology. So you don't have to be friendly to all of the houses, only most of them.
I was also thinking for attack types, how many should be allowed on one unit. The way I was going to do this was pick a number, say, 10, and allow each attack type a number or short code. Then any slot of attack type could be arranged in any order, for any attack mode, even doubles.
e.g.: I want my Mega Tanks to be powerful , but not overly so. Therefore, instead of giving them an accuracy of 20 and a damage of 250, I give them 4 direct attacks, with 10-15 accuracy and only 100-150 damage apiece.
One thing I didn't see in Deathifier's summary (BTW, thank you for the list Death) was something I had seen discussed before, but never decided upon. I like the idea, so in my engine, I will have the ability to turn on and off your production facilities.
Also, I know this was in Death's list, but the resources in the city window is a definite. Cargo pods can be produced upon will, and a city can hold 1000 of any resource, much more if it harvests or produces said resource. (I was thinking about 10,000 or so) Also an automatic docking of resources in a city. You will be prompted for moving into the city if you want to dock resources in the city. If it is left in the city while the city is full of the same resource, as the city goes empty on that resource, it will draw from the cargo pod to replenish city stores.
These resources would also be viewable within the city screen, as well as current build and tech.
I was also thinking to go with the seperate unit and equipment ideas, Hit Point value and Structural Value. Also a Mind Point or Mental Point value for Psychic attacks. Once MP reaches 0, unit can be converted/captured or whatever to reflect no free will whatsoever.
On a similar note, Cities should have the same thing. Population Health and Structural anyways. Each city should also be able to upgrade themselves for combat capabilities, defense bonuses and undefended strength.(Cities wont just give up and say "OK! Come and take us over! We Don't mind at all!") Sorry, just dont happen. They shouldnt be able to make much of a stink, but they should have some sort of offensive and defensive capabilities.
And since there will or should be space grids, the Starbase unit should not be a unit per se, but a city where all of the space ships are built. They should also be a unit to the point of movement and attack capabilities. Exactly how to do this, I have no idea, but I was thinking of it.
Also, I will have a very basi diagram out for the city/unit screen and one for the Tech screen as well. I will have these up to a viewable location as soo as I have time to get them on the comp.
Also, how does a government produce 400 units of military (at 2000 personel per unit) with one planet of just a few cites? A population with a limit of military on population sounds good. As long as you continue to expand, then it is fine, but if you try to continue producing units without building cities, then a lack of draftable people comes along and thwarts you. This is all under construction. I dont know if I even want to use this.
For Upgrades of units, similar to Hyperion and some in Nova and Subversion, a universal warehouse stype idea for this. In system (as long as there is a cargo ship of any sort, doing anything, it is a universal in system warehouse on resources AND units. The option of a true universal warehouse will be an option....
The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan
With Artillery, Indirect and Artillery fire are two different things. Indirect is an in Combat attact for small mortars and the like, Artillery is for multi hex weapons like our own current (US Army) Avenger Artillery Battery and Battleships that can fire 200+ miles.
I actually came up with an idea to get large numbers of militia in comparison to smaller numbers of Golems. allow 1000 units in a hex. to offset power of units, a militia for example is a size 5, so 200 of these units can fit into one hex. While on the other hand, a DNA Assault Legion would be 150 or 200, so only 5-7 of these units will fit in the same hex. Then you have your space units, your smaller squadrons of fighters and bombers would be 50-75, while your gargantuan Dreadnoughts would be 500 or more (only 1 or 2 per hex) that way a large army of Frigates and destroyers, while maybe not being able to destroy the Dreadnought, they would be able to hurt it pretty bad.
As for the individual Tech Trees, most of the Technologies are similar or the same, however, they allow for House specific Tech, again in as much or as little abundance as you want. Another thing I was thinking of was the extreme high tech weaponry and units (such as Meson Cannons and Advanced Neurocellular Biografting of Ceramsteel Wetware Implants) could have need of cooperation between houses to research properly. Have 5 prerequisites for said technology, one from each house (including your own) but, you only need 3 or 4 to actually research the technology. So you don't have to be friendly to all of the houses, only most of them.
I was also thinking for attack types, how many should be allowed on one unit. The way I was going to do this was pick a number, say, 10, and allow each attack type a number or short code. Then any slot of attack type could be arranged in any order, for any attack mode, even doubles.
e.g.: I want my Mega Tanks to be powerful , but not overly so. Therefore, instead of giving them an accuracy of 20 and a damage of 250, I give them 4 direct attacks, with 10-15 accuracy and only 100-150 damage apiece.
One thing I didn't see in Deathifier's summary (BTW, thank you for the list Death) was something I had seen discussed before, but never decided upon. I like the idea, so in my engine, I will have the ability to turn on and off your production facilities.
Also, I know this was in Death's list, but the resources in the city window is a definite. Cargo pods can be produced upon will, and a city can hold 1000 of any resource, much more if it harvests or produces said resource. (I was thinking about 10,000 or so) Also an automatic docking of resources in a city. You will be prompted for moving into the city if you want to dock resources in the city. If it is left in the city while the city is full of the same resource, as the city goes empty on that resource, it will draw from the cargo pod to replenish city stores.
These resources would also be viewable within the city screen, as well as current build and tech.
I was also thinking to go with the seperate unit and equipment ideas, Hit Point value and Structural Value. Also a Mind Point or Mental Point value for Psychic attacks. Once MP reaches 0, unit can be converted/captured or whatever to reflect no free will whatsoever.
On a similar note, Cities should have the same thing. Population Health and Structural anyways. Each city should also be able to upgrade themselves for combat capabilities, defense bonuses and undefended strength.(Cities wont just give up and say "OK! Come and take us over! We Don't mind at all!") Sorry, just dont happen. They shouldnt be able to make much of a stink, but they should have some sort of offensive and defensive capabilities.
And since there will or should be space grids, the Starbase unit should not be a unit per se, but a city where all of the space ships are built. They should also be a unit to the point of movement and attack capabilities. Exactly how to do this, I have no idea, but I was thinking of it.
Also, I will have a very basi diagram out for the city/unit screen and one for the Tech screen as well. I will have these up to a viewable location as soo as I have time to get them on the comp.
Also, how does a government produce 400 units of military (at 2000 personel per unit) with one planet of just a few cites? A population with a limit of military on population sounds good. As long as you continue to expand, then it is fine, but if you try to continue producing units without building cities, then a lack of draftable people comes along and thwarts you. This is all under construction. I dont know if I even want to use this.
For Upgrades of units, similar to Hyperion and some in Nova and Subversion, a universal warehouse stype idea for this. In system (as long as there is a cargo ship of any sort, doing anything, it is a universal in system warehouse on resources AND units. The option of a true universal warehouse will be an option....
The Darkmages are Rising
Jakkan
Re: Precoding
Sometimes I just love nitpicking . Anyway, from May onwards I'll be doing my Master's thesis and building a next gen space strategy game engine of my own so I can satisfy my most radical ideas.
Re: Precoding
There should definately be stack limits in hexes, or if there isn't, there should be some type of advantage to having multiple stacks being used. Also, perhaps the higher tech units costs should be raised to be very expensive, because right now, no one in their right mind will build infantry, heavy infantry and the likes of those units in the late game. A big part is they aren't worth their cost in comparison to other units, and if someone has 20 infantry going up against 20 DNA assault legions, I think we know what happens.
But if there was a way to situate the game so a battle would be more like....50 infanry, 7 or 8 golem units, couple artillery, some tanks, etc, that would definately be cool. Right now I think the EFS combat system is flawed. Indirect and direct attacks are too important simply as a phase, as units like Rangers and DNA Assault Legions shouldn't even have indirect attacks.
Perhaps there could be a stealth attack, where if the units was unspotted, he cannot be hit by artillery that combat round, and he can immediately go to a specific phase of combat, instead of just getting increased agility...
But if there was a way to situate the game so a battle would be more like....50 infanry, 7 or 8 golem units, couple artillery, some tanks, etc, that would definately be cool. Right now I think the EFS combat system is flawed. Indirect and direct attacks are too important simply as a phase, as units like Rangers and DNA Assault Legions shouldn't even have indirect attacks.
Perhaps there could be a stealth attack, where if the units was unspotted, he cannot be hit by artillery that combat round, and he can immediately go to a specific phase of combat, instead of just getting increased agility...
Re: Precoding
The stack size limit creates the said problem of 20 infantry vs. 20 DNA assault legions. With the price of 20 DNA assault legions you might be able to build a 100 or more regular infantry to have strength in numbers and in that situation the assault legions suddenly seem less interesting. Not like they don't have advantages of their own though.
Perhaps we should look into some other strategy games for better models. Certainly there are other reasons which prevent you to have all your units in one stack in practice. I can think of at least these:
</font>
Some strategy games can manage large amounts of troops but those usually are not for the faint of heart and in those games the combat is everything. Not the extension of house politics . Guess that would lead to some sort of fronts in the battle, if one wants to prevent that.
So what's the best combat model you have seen?
Perhaps we should look into some other strategy games for better models. Certainly there are other reasons which prevent you to have all your units in one stack in practice. I can think of at least these:
</font>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you cannot cover a large area (probably most important in real life)
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">your troops would basically be swamping each other
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">high density means more vulnerable to artillery (if we consider the large hex size then this only applies when the hordes attack the same target)
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you need more men (problem when need highly trained troops but militia sure isn't and armies in FS are smaller than nowadays)
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you need more weapons (irl this is usually not a problem but some high tech weapons in FS are very rare)
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">you have all the eggs in one basket (can you say plague bomb/tactical nuke)
</font></li> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">maintenance costs (could go either way)
</font></li>
Some strategy games can manage large amounts of troops but those usually are not for the faint of heart and in those games the combat is everything. Not the extension of house politics . Guess that would lead to some sort of fronts in the battle, if one wants to prevent that.
So what's the best combat model you have seen?
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